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Comprehensive G1 Counterfeit / "Knockoff" ID Guide

LAST UPDATED: 9/8/2014

Zhong Jin ID Guides:

    • Red Alert
      • Real US Red Alert says "Transforms from Fire Chief's Car".  Counterfeit says "Transforms from Race Car".
      • The grey grid lines in the background are thicker (like you see on most of the counterfeits).
      • "Transforms from [...]" and "Autobot Warrior" are the wrong fonts
    • Sideswipe
      • Counterfeit has an extra-wide grid square (double sized) to the right of Sideswipe's name
      • The grey grid lines in the background are thicker (like you see on most of the counterfeits).
      • "Transforms from [...]" and "Autobot Warrior" are the wrong fonts
    • Smokescreen
    • Sunstreaker
      • The counterfeit has "Ages. 5 & Up" instead of "Ages: 5 & Up" on front of box--it uses a period instead of a colon.  This is the same difference as on Mirage and Wheeljack's boxes.
      • Check out Dan's loose Sunstreaker ID guide.
    • Wheeljack
      • See e3nine's guide for box differences.
      • The toy is missing its the factory applied stickers, including the obvious "539" sticker on the door.
      • Early runs of this counterfeit have problems with the legs locking in place.  Later runs don't have this problem.
      • See coolyooyu's toy and accessories ID guide.
  • Cassettes:
  • Combiners
    • Abominus giftset
      • Comes in easilly identifiable English language giftset box, which never was released in the 1980's or any other time.
    • Computron giftset
    • Defensor giftset
      • Artwork is missing a detail from Defensor's crotch:
     
    • Decepticon Jets:
      • Cyclonus and Scourge
        • See these ID guides:
     
    • Dinobots:
      • In General:
        • "The Counterfeits used the "TM" moldings, stamped Instructions, but issued them in "R" copyright boxes. That's the reason for the "Slag" box with NO yellow box indicating "Transformers" on the front lower left (they copied the "TM" graphics), and the amputated NO Hasbro copyrights on the bots themselves. The original TM bots, like these, ALL exhibited "Takara 1984" (and then some Japanese characters) ONLY on [the toys]. Again, NO mention of Hasbro anywhere [on the toys themselves]."  (Tip contributed by bendrixx--Thank you!)
      • Grimlock
      • Slag
        • On the original, it says "TRANSFORMERS" above Slag's name on the front of the box.  The counterfeit is missing this.  (There is a real Slag box variant that is missing the little "TRANSFORMERS" logo, but it has "TM" on the big logo, instead of the "(R)" that the counterfeit has, so you can still use this tip to tell the difference.)
        • In early batches of the counterfeit, all parts on Slag originally silver are gold, except for his mane.  This includes his jaw, the chrome parts on his ribs, and his gun.  Later versions are silver like a real Slag.  Reportedly there is also a variant of the counterfeit with a red jaw.
        • Some versions of the counterfeit include a silver chrome sword, other versions include a red sword like a real Slag would have.
        • Early versions of the counterfeit have a plastic film over the first holes.
        • Slag's dino face is completely translucent on the counterfeit, whereas the original is very slightly opaque.
        • See coolyooyu's toy and accessories ID guide.
      • Sludge
      • Snarl
        • On the counterfeit's box, the black bar above his name is not long enough--the real one lines up with the bottom yellow box.
        • In early batches of the counterfeit, the clear plastic is too dark.  Later versions correct this problem.
      • Swoop
        • See this ID guide:
  • CORRECTION: Legit Swoops can have the perforation
    • Also, for loose Swoops, here are some helpful differences:
      • Factory applied stickers are not applied.  They come on a sticker sheet instead.
      • Early runs of this counterfeit had many problems:
        • Toy itself is relatively low quality.  Soft plastic was used, the toy doesn't fit together well, and it's generally lose.
        • The red paint on the diecast chips very easily.
        • The head it comes assembled with is not painted.  Subsequent runs included an extra painted head in the package that can be swapped out with the unpainted head. 
        • Some of the initial run comes with Grimlock's sword instead of Swoop's sword.
      • Many of the problems mentioned above were resolved eventually in later runs of the counterfeit.
      • The launchers do not fit on one of the wings.
    • Gnaw
    • Headmaster Weirdwolf
    • Insecticons (Bombshell, Kickback, Shrapnel):
    • Minibots (Beachcomber, Brawn, Bumblebee, Cliffjumper, Cosmos, Hubcap, Outback, Powerglide, Seaspray, Warpath):
      • General ID Tips:
        • All Minibots, except Bumblebee: Holepunch is in center, but original's holepunch is shifted toward the right.  This is easiest way to tell that the Minibots are fakes.
        • All Minibots, except Brawn and Outback: Bubble is too far away from edge.  Original release's edge of bubble touched edge of card.
        • Most Minibots: Have abbreviated copyright info on the back of the card, like the Chinese release--i.e., "manufactured in (Country) under license from Takara" is missing on the back of the card.
        • Some loose ID tips from AC Toys that use the sprue cut locations.
      • Specific ID Tips:
        • Beachcomber
          • Has wrong sticker on his chest.
          • Has typo on back of card.
        • Bumblebee:
          • Since Bumblebee's holepunch isn't centered (an obvious giveaway for the other Minibots), look for the abbreviated copyright info on the back of the card.  That's a clear giveaway.  (See "General ID Tips" several lines above.)
          • Sometimes has Decepticon rubsign on his chest.  Rubsign is sometimes up-side-down.
        • Cosmos:
          • Arms assembled up-side-down.
        • Hubcap: See e3nine's guide.
        • Seapray: See Fighbird's ID guide
    • Optimus Prime
      • See e3nine's guide
      • The grey showing above the trailer's window is probably the most obvious tell.
      • The earliest run said "Made in France" on the trailer, while later runs said "Made in Japan" instead.  Real "Made in France" Optimus Primes are pretty hard to come by.
      • There is also a black version counterfeit and a gold-instead-of-silver version counterfeit, which imitate expensive limited edition Japanese reissue releases.  Of course, the originals did not come in U.S. boxes, so that is one obvious tell for the counterfeit.  Also, the gold-instead-of-silver counterfeit does not have the gold stickers of the original.
      • The red paint on the diecast chips very easily.
    • Reflector in mail-away box
      • Almost impossible to distinguish from the original MISB.
      • Does not come with factory stickers applied.  They are on a seperate sticker sheet.
      • The missiles of the original come attached on a 4-sided rectangular plastic tree.  On the counterfeit, the tree is missing its left side.
      • Tips contributed by iceman (Thank you!):
        • The factory tape is old. Regardless of storage, especially being on a white box, its impossible for the tape to stay perfectly clear over all these years.
        • KO Reflector box cardboard is slightly thinner than original.
        • Inside the box:
          • KO comes with an extra decal sheet for unapplied factory decals.
          • The polystyrene tray is made of less-dense foam/poly cells, in otherwords its a cheaper grade.
          • On official g1 poly/foam tray inserts, they all have many many circles stamped on them on the top side. These circles have 6 lines running through them. Counterfeits including reflector do not have this pattern. This is an instant give-away on foam trays, but is often hard to see in photos with alot of lighting and are better viewed up close.
          • Spyglass has a darker blue paintjob on his metal chest.
          • Viewfinder has a big giveaway. Viewfinders arms are of course grey/silver plastic. on an original, viewfinders forearms have perfect plastic mix and colouration consistancy. On a ko, the plastic isnt mixed as well and you can see a wash in the plastic.
    • Shockwave
    • Soundwave/Buzzsaw (box only)
    • Triple Changers
     

    CAT-TOYS ID Guides:

    Kidi Toys ID Guides:

    • Devastator
      • See these two ID guides:
      
    • Metroplex
    • Metrotitan
      • Comes in counterfeit Metroplex box with the sticker "Emulational Robot" on it, so use the Metroplex guide for the box.
      • The red plastic is much pinker on the counterfeit.
      • The counterfeit does not come with Metrobomb (the Micromaster) or the docking piece to connect Metrotitan to the other Micromaster bases.

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    Octane

    The jpg was great, thanks.
    Noted a discrepancy: my KO Octane came with the diagonal placement of the figure in bubble, not flush/flat against the back of the box as suggested. Could be a change, could be either/or.

    Re: Octane

    Thanks for the feedback. I'll update the guide with your new info soon!

    Bluestreak is there a ko i box

    I am responding again to my earlier comment my bluestreak is a pre rub version and it has red guns instead of silver is it still original

    Re: Bluestreak is there a ko i box

    There is no boxed knockoff that I am aware of.

    I took a look at the ones that the seller is selling, and they are clearly legit. They're actually part of a dead stock find from a few years ago--I can tell, because I recognize some of the other stuff from the dead stock find that he is selling, like mail-away Gnaw and Sky Garry. Word of caution, though: some of the Prowls and Bluestreaks have really bad glue on the bubble and come off the card during shipping.

    Anyway, the guy who said it was a knockoff is just an idiot :) It's real.

    Bluestreak is there a ko in box

    Hi i had bought g1 bluestreak three months ago from e bay and i paid 500 dollars for mib bluestreak but it is mosc .The problem is i put a video of the unboxing in youtube but a guy told me he thinks is a ko . The box looks quite mint and the stickers and accessories are all kept in the packet sealed with tape that is yellowing and the figure is sealed on to the card . I personally belief it is real as the seller sells a lot of g1 and he stated he does not sell fake items. He has 99.3% positive feedback and there is no complaint regarding about the figure.The seller ebay id is ( babeconvoy) if possible could u research for me whether he is he sells real authentic g1 I just want to clear my doubts thanks a lot.

    GRADED COUNTERFEIT RAVAGE/RUMBLE

    COUNTERFEIT RAVAGE/RUMBLE AFA GRADED ON EBAY?
    Ebay ITEM # 141053106489. This item was graded in 2010. Two red flags: Rumble has black hips and his name extends WAY beyond the 7 in the Asst#.......all the way to the edge of "ASST" Any thoughts from anyone

    RE: GRADED COUNTERFEIT RAVAGE/RUMBLE

    Thanks for pointing this one out. I took a look and it's real. I can tell because it doesn't have most of the other differences, and you can see it has the Omnibots mail-away insert behind Ravage:
    http://tfsource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/xmail15.jpg

    I've got a note in the ID guide that some black-hipped Rumbles are real. I'll add something that says "ignore the Rumble name positioning if it's the 5731/5733 assortment".

    COUNTERFEIT RAVAGE/RUMBLE AFA GRADED ON EBAY?

    Thanks for your response! Learned something new.

    Sunstreaker fake or not

    I have a g1 sunstreaker and it say below 'AGES: 6 and up' instead of 'AGES: 5 and up' so I need to know is it fake it not please reply because even had a sticker in the saying 9.90

    Re: Sunstreaker fake or not

    It's some sort of legit version. The counterfeit has "Ages. 5 and up" (no colon, different number).

    Smokescreen Counterfeit Guide

    Wanted to send this over for a possible add to the page:
    http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-toy-discussion/783773-transfo...

    Other guides have been infinitely helpful.

    Re: Smokescreen Counterfeit Guide

    Finally added this. Sorry for the delay!

    Re: Smokescreen Counterfeit Guide

    Thanks for the link! I'll add it to the site when I get a chance.

    .......

    _,I think this course is one of the around out there, it definatley worked for me,although you do have to put the work in,but as iv said we are all is different and we all have our ups and downs.Gladly i keep going up ,Good luck.man tom

    Dinobots on eBay

    HI this listing claims these are re-issues by Takara and made in Japan. Are these the actual re-issue boxes? I am only sceptical because the listing is in China.
    eBay listing no: 180827281472

    RE: Sludge on eBay

    Hi there,

    I was hoping someone would be able to verify this listing of Sludge on eBay, if it is indeed an original G1 figure. THe ebay listing is -200688316902
    I have tried using the information from this page but I am very bad at picking out the subtle differences, as this figure has the red sword and seems to have the correct colours.

    Thank you.

    Pepsi Decals for Pepsi Variant of G1 Optimus Prime

    Hi. Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the real pepsi decals that came with the pepsi variant and the reproduction pepsi decals?

    Hound sealed both sides TM

    I recently bought a hound , the box has the TM , i expected it to be a pre-rub . However it has a rub sign . is this common ?

    Re: Hound sealed both sides TM

    It's not common, but it's possible it's "transitional"--made right before they were switching over from TM to R, and the rub signs were available but the boxes were still being worked on. Weirder things have happened :)

    1986 movie prime

    So it is an original Hasbro. I havent heard of this. Is it rare? Thanks for responding!

    Re: 1986 movie prime

    Hey, I didn't read the article fully. Looks like the same stamp was used on Hasbro and Takara reissues as well. Sorry if I've just muddied the waters. Here is how you tell the difference between the movie version trailer and the reissue trailer:

    " reissue trailer door has a 5 stamping on it, and 3 large mold-indents on it(per side, total of 6)....movie trailer door has a small, hidden 5 stamped in a corner, and 6 small indents."

    Here is the article in full:

    http://fredsworkshop.com/vprime.html#parts3

    mail away/ movie trailer

    According to Fred's workshop which has a pic of a Prime trailer with 5 stamping in the trailer slot, the reissue trailer has large indent circles and a 5 stamping, while the real trailer has small indent circles and a 5 stamped in a corner, all this being on the trailer door. I compared those descriptions to a trailer I have with the 5 in the trailer slot and a trailer with 4, and the trailer with the T4 in the slot has a trailer door that has a 5 stamped on the side not corner with the small indent circles. Its my opinion that the trailer with the T4 has the small indent circles with a 5 on the side of the trailer door while the T5 trailer (movie trailer) has the larger indent circles and a 5 in the top ride corner. Can anyone confirm?

    Optimus g1 5 stamp on trailer and cab

    I recently purchased a loose in box prime and saw it has a 5 stamp in the trailer slot. Ive seen T; T2; T4, but this has only a five. Any thoughts?

    Re: Optimus g1 5 stamp on trailer and cab

    According to Fred's old Optimus Prime variant page, it's a mail-away 1986 Movie Prime :)

    Series 1 Bumblebee

    Hi I recently purchased a series 1 bumblebee sealed on the card.. I did a lot of home work from this site and got alot of pictures from the seller. So question is...is there any comparisons of a series one bumblebee? On the bottom of him it reads something in japananese an then CTakara CO. LTD 1980-1984-Japan.Looks pretty legit. The card has the full copy rights nothing is shortened and the card's hole punch isnt punched. WOW I SAID!!! A Prerub and a non punched hole how rare is that!!
    Im not sure 100% if it was resealed as it possibly looks like it either came loose and was glued on the bottom and sides or it was opened and reglued or its just wear from its age and my eyes are playing tricks on me.
    My thought was if it was opened there sure isnt any bends in the card or bubble since its about half way up. and to fit the car back inside without puting a crease or really big bend...Well im not sure, I really want to send it to AFA but Im think it might get rejected.then what good is it..hahaha Good thing is I only paid $136.00 for it.

    Re: Series 1 Bumblebee

    I saw this on Ebay too. It's an original G1 in good condition, but I saw larger pictures of it from the seller, and it definitely looks like a reseal. Sometimes people reseal carded figures because the bubble is getting loose--i.e., the toy doesn't even have to come out of it and it's still a reseal. I wouldn't send it to AFA to grade (it would probably get rejected), but they could probably make you a decent sliding-bottom case for it if you want to display it.

    Series 1 Bumblebee

    Thx for your thoughts mightgaine.... So I decided to send it to AFA and ask them to grade it under the Qualified Scale if they think it was resealed. When I saw a bigger picture from the seller I saw a spot on the left side that looked like it could have been resealed, its torn underneath but after looking at it a million times and under a magnafi glass I think It might not be resealed but just faded from the years but not for sure. I usualy only buy MISB or MOSC transformers and dont want to bother with loose KO's. so when I get it back from AFA look for me.

    Made in France Trailer blue feet

    I recently purchased a loose G1 Prime. The trailer says made in france 1980, 1982. It has the T2 symbol and takara stamp. I also noticed the grey plastic the trailer is made of is somewhat glittery and has alot more shine than my original and a couple others I have. Im assuming this is a knockoff. I read somewhere that there were red-footed and blue-footed primes manufactured in France but that they are very rare. Any ideas?

    Re: Made in France Trailer blue feet

    Yeah, "Made in France" OP is pretty hard to come by unless you're in Europe. That's the version they got over there. I'd vote knockoff.

    I heard about this before

    I heard about this before and this is my first time got the time to read about, it was interesting and useful if you have more detail on this topic kindly share here.debt settlement companyMostly for myself, but also for the benefit of others, here are some of the modules that have gotten.

    Anyone have KO Red Alert Comparisons?

    Hey, just wondering is anyone has KO Red Alert info/pics..like copyright diffs, mold diffs, etc?

    KO Reflector Worries

    I'm concerned with the number of Transformers Reflector toys I keep seeing popping up on Ebay. My primary concern is that the KO's may be used and sold as the original. As an experiment, I recently purchased my first (and definitely last) KO Transformer, a KO Reflector and compared it to pics of the original I found all over the net. All kinds of speculative comparisons CLAIM the KO has different looking stickers, different pins for the arms in Spyglass, different copyright info....but when examining the KO I bought, it's IDENTICAL to the original, once one applied the included pre applied factory stickers are stuck on. The styro in the KO is even identical. These guys did an absolutely fantastic job on the KO. My primary question is this, does ANYONE have any info that proves the KO from the original? I KNOW the missile tree is different in appearance, but from what I can see, it appears one could simply remove the missiles from the tree, apply the stickers and sell the toy MIB as original for hundreds of $$.

    RE KO Reflector worries

    Hi there, I shall answer your question the best I can.

    There are several differences:

    * There are actually 2 types of Reflector mailaway boxes. 1 has made in Japan down the bottom right corner, and this is the version that is most common and was counterfeited. The 2nd has this same text but "fabrique au japon" in french additionally underneath the 'made in japan' text.. in otherwords, a canadian version. However, as there was limited numbers of boxes produced, less then the amount of reflector figures for mail away, it is a fact these boxes were sent out throughout north america, until the boxes and remaining poly/foam trays from reflectors microx days were used up, then reflector was sent in bags like other mailaways.

    * The factory tape is old. Regardless of storage, especially being on a white box, its impossible for the tape to stay perfectly clear over all these years..

    * KO Reflector box cardboard is slightly thinner than original.

    INSIDE THE BOX

    * Missile tree is the one we all know, the ko is missing one of the sides, the original has four corners.

    * KO comes with an extra decal sheet for unapplied factory decals.

    * the polystyrene tray is made of less-dense foam/poly cells, in otherwords its a cheaper grade.

    * On official g1 poly/foam tray inserts, they all have many many circles stamped on them on the top side. these circles have 6 lines running through them. ko g1s including reflector do not have this pattern. this is an instant give-away on foam trays, but is often hard to see in photos with alot of lighting and are better viewed up close.

    * Spyglass has a darker blue paintjob on his metal chest.

    * Viewfinder has a big giveaway. Viewfinders arms are of course grey/silver plastic. on an original, viewfinders forearms have perfect plastic mix and colouration consistancy. On a ko, the plastic isnt mixed as well and you can see a wash in the plastic.

    those are my tell tale signs.

    Yeah, fake Reflector is very

    Yeah, fake Reflector is very hard to tell apart from the real thing. If anyone has anything to add to the guide for how to tell the difference, it would of course be appreciated.

    Difference in real and KO Reflector

    When you press the button on top of the authentic Spectro's head, the button should click. I've read that the KO Spectro's button doesn't click when pressed.

    Gnaw

    So, a counterfeit Gnaw would have the golden sticker or a legitimate one would? There's a Gnaw MISB on Ebay right now with a big gold looking seal or something in the lower right corner of the box. I assume this is the "golden sticker" in question. Would that make it a KO?

    You can't tell by the

    You can't tell by the sticker whether it's a knockoff or not. Both legit and KO versions can have it. Though, it's much harder to find on legit versions, since it only came with the Japanese mail order version.

    Encore?

    Encore is an official re-issue line from TakaraTomy with boxes that are -easily- distinguishable from the originals; toys, too (stampings, for one).

    There's no Encore Scourge, either.

    And Here's an Ebay LINK to the Authentic "TM" Dinobots

    Just found examples of the very rare 1st edition "TM" Dinobots! As you can see, they came with the 84' catalogs, DARK gray bubbles (like the cars), The "TM" stamped boxes (over "The Transformers" on the top flap), the "TM" stamped instructions, and had slightly more saturated box colors. The Counterfeits used the "TM" moldings, stamped Instructions, but issued them in "R" copyrigth boxes. That's the reason for the "Slag" box with NO yellow box indicating "Transformers" on the front lower left (they copied the "TM" graphics), and the amputated NO Hasbro copyrights on the bots themselves. The original TM bots, like these, ALL exhibited "Takara 1984" (and then some Japanese characters) ONLY on them. Again, NO mention of Hasbro anywhere.

    Item Numbers for "TM" Bots:

    230418711581 (Slag)
    230418653504 (Snarl)
    230418715390 (Grimlock)
    230418723609 (Sludge)

    This, to me, blows the doors off the "reverse engineered" theory. Unless, somehow, the countefeiters got a hold of the original "TM" molds. I guess anything is possible, but I would assume they would just re use the late 80's, early 90's Chinese Issued Transformers moldings (that is, if any "reverse eningeering" were going to be utilized).

    More on Counterfeit Dinobots

    I actually own BOTH versions of the Original Dinobots including the "TM" early early issues, and the later "R" trademarked versions. The Sludge box is a very VERY tricky one. Here's what I found. The counterfeit box still exhibits the closer than normal tech spec on the left edge of the box and cut off artwork no matter what, BUT the pictured statement of alternate tech readings = KO on Coolyooyu's breakdown of the Dinobots Sludge and Slag are INCORRECT. They may be 1 indicator, but do NOT use these as a sole indicator as some have been doing. Look at the artwork on the front of Sludge's box, where it is cropped and the artwork on the back and the left margin where it is cropped again on the KO's. There are LEGITIMATE Dinobots that have that ALTERNATE tech reading (again Slag and Sludge included). A definite example is a SLAG I own with the "Colon" after ages _ and up", correct colors, copyrights, etc, yet its box exhibits the same KO tech reading as Coolyooyu's, BUT the bot and ALL other characteristics of the box are correct indicating it's totally authentic and legit. Also, the Swoop box CAN say "ages 6 and up" and STILL be 100% legitimate. I also noticed on the bottom of one of my authentic "R" trademarked Gimlocks's feet, the screw hole pattern is identical to Coolyooyu's pictured counterfeit under-foot's pattern but without the silver screws. It's riveted like the original...so it's the same NUMBER of screws as the counterfeit, but with the black plastic rivets of the pictured originals.

    I'm going to get a detailed comparison up soon between the "TM" and "R" trademarked bots and run those against E3nine and Coolyooyu's comparisons. I think what we're going to find is that some of the "TM" copyrighted molds were reverse engineered as opposed to the later "R" molds, and that there may be 2 or MORE original "R" trademarked molds that were used that can be considered legit. This probably translates to some of the legitimate box and bot similarities to the bootlegs. But I'm noticing my originals still exhibit MOST of Coolyooyu's comparisons to authentic G1 bots, regardless of "TM" or "R".

    We DO need a final reference on these though as they're causing more confusion than ever.

    Re: More on Counterfeit Dinobots

    Good info! I'm looking forward to the detailed comparison.

    re: Dinobots

    Ok, so I got a bunch of photos of the "TM" Dinos up on Ebay last night after grading and inspecting them for our online business as part of an Ebay auction. The Sludge I spent a LOT of time on comparisons. Very, very interesting stuff on that one. You can see the bootlegs used the "TM" HASBRO amputated copyright info like the original TM molds, BUT, neglected to use the same "open side-pin" molds for the grey plastic, and also used the cheaper rivets and brads to hold the dino together. The "TM" appears to be identical to the later "R" release, with the exception of the amputated copyright info, and the missing "oval" cut out on Sludge's under belly. This suggests to me (IMHO), that the bootlegs reverse engineered the Sludge from an original "TM" but also cut a lot of corners on the Dino mold and hardware. I also found it fascinating that the bootlegs used the TM instruction booklets (again suggesting reverse engineering froma loose set of bots), but then the "R" boxes...which are MUCH more common and easy to find than the "TM" stamped 1st release Dinobot boxes.

    I'm covering "TM" Grimlock in more detail soon (another interesting one). That toy exhibits all the characteristics of the authentic toy shown in the guides here, BUT it's copyright info is the lighter square stamp, like the the bootleg, again telling me the bootlegs were likely reverse engineered from "TM" molds for several of the Dinobots.

    Ebay listing here: 200406677705

    More on Dinobots...sorry! Keep finding new stuff.

    Ok, I relaize this is getting ridiculous, but I found some important comparisons, this time on Grimlock. On the "R" issue Grimlock, he comes with the extra/additional screw pattern (like the KO) on the bottom of his feet. UNLIKE the KO, he does NOT have silver rivets/screws in each hole. The "TM" issue Grimlock has the lesser screw hole pattern like the authentic one listed on the Chinese comparison site. The "TM" issued Grimlock does have a slightly LIGHTER copyright pattern on his left leg, than the "R" issue Grimlock, but the stamps are identical. ALSO on the "R" issue Grims, he has an additional "Hasbro" stamping on the inside of his RIGHT leg. The "TM" does NOT have this additional stamping. The "TM's" head line/mold pattern on the top of his noggin' is slightly longer and slightly offset, unlike the 'R" version, which has a better aligned pattern
    and appears to be a bit fatter/wider line pattern. Most interesting, on the "TM" Grimms, his break apart 2-piece grey chest secion with the arms attached, that reveals the head does NOT have a plastic lock pin to hold it shut like the "R" issue Grimms does at the bottom corner. it's completely absent, and the head snapping onto the top is the only thing holding the TM's 2 sections together until it is un snapped and flipped up.
    The Rivets and hardware are identical, from what I can see on both the "TM" and "R" and are a LOT higher quality than the "KO", which uses pressed, or "star pattern" rivets for most of the connective areas. The inside mouth patterns and inside flip out grey plastic pieces (with the arms attached) patterns for BOTH "R" and "TM" Grimms are also identical, and completely UNLIKE the "KO".

    The last thing I'm very concerned with though is an un explored topic here thus far, and that is the introduction of ANOTHER Dinobot Slag which has the CORRECT silver parts and silver lower mouth. Now, I BELIEVE that piece was made the same way as the gold colored 1st release and lacks the copyright info on the right leg like the "TM" and "R" originals...but I need to see one up close to be sure. Will post on that one if and when I can find one MISB as I want to be sure it's a direct new KO I'm looking at for direct comparisons.

    Pics coming soon! I'll get a web link up as well with those.

    re:

    Thanks MG!...working on it.

    BTW...you don't know where i could score a set of boxed complete reissue Dinobots do you? i see they're $289.99 for the set on Ebay sealed, but I really just need them to do a side by side comparison with my "R" copyright and early "TM" copyright bots to hopefully help end all the confusion once and for all. If I have to, I'm going to pick them up off Ebay, but if you know anyone that could donate them to "project real Dinobot" for a week or 2, it would help greatly!

    Spotted another difference on SWOOP.

    Hi there!
    First of all, just want to say i love the website. Really useful stuff, it's websites like this one what make the Internet a wonderful place.

    Now, comparing my vintage Swoop box with the counterfeit, i have just spotted a little difference.

    In the front, the original says: AGES: 5 & UP
    and the counterfeit says instead: AGES: 6 & UP

    I thought it should be fun and nice to share it with you guys.

    BTW, another difference: The counterfeit box seems something like 3 milimeters narrower, wich explains the artwork touching the right edge and some milimeters of artwork missing at the left edge in the back of the box.

    If you need pics, just ask.

    I hope it not one of that things that everybody knows, hehe... Just trying to be useful.

    Greetings from Spain and KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! ^__^

    Re: SWOOP

    Actually, some real ones have "AGES: 6 & UP" too! It was a running change. Still, at least you know you're safe with "5 & UP".

    Thanks for the tips, and sorry for the delay approving your post. (I had to moderate all the posts because spammers try to make posts here.)

    KO Swoop?

    Ok, I am looking at this Swoop (link below) on Ebay and it has the "5 and up" age thing, it doesn't have the "extra wide grid" on the front of the box and the grid doesn't "fade too much" into the background. I also don't see the perforation in the background. The one problem is I don't see the rub sign n the wing. Any idea if this is legit?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/SWOOP-Transformers-G1-AFA-80-MISB-Sealed_W0QQitemZ26...

    The box appears legit to me,

    The box appears legit to me, and it's sealed, so I'm thinking it's a Hasbro/Takara factory mistake that the rub sign is missing.

    Comment on KO Swoop

    Hi. I found your page today and (naturally) started checking my figs to see if I had managed to come by any knock-offs. When I checked my sealed Swoop, I found the rubsign on the correct side, the artwork not touching the border, the narrow grey border, factory stickers applied, no blending of the grid into the red background, and no wide column. So far so good. However, mine has perforations. In fact it has three of them - two vertical and one horizontal - visible through the front.

    I had a Swoop as a kid, and I'll admit, I was a bit anal. I still have it, along with the original box and bubble. Although I threw away the backer, the top layer of it came off with the bubble when I removed it 24 years ago. The odd part is, there are perforations clearly visible in the same spots as my sealed figure. There is even a fourth vertical one on the right side (which can't be seen in the sealed fig). Here's where it gets even more interesting - I checked the 24 year old box to see if any of the other "KO" indicators were there. Sure enough, the character artwork goes to the edge, and the grey border appears wider. However, it does not have the wide column, and the grid doesn't blend.

    If I had to guess, I'd say that the printing and/or die-cutting processes used to make the original boxes was not as precise as we'd like to think it was. A small shift in the positioning of the box stock as it was being cut or printed could easily create the illusion that the character artwork was shifted to the right and would also account for a wider grey border area.

    I can send you pics of all these things if you'd like to see them, and if my camera will cooperate thru the cello of the sealed fig.

    -Matt

    Encore Scourge

    Since the front of the boxes look the same, how can you tell the difference of a true vintage Scourge and and Encore version? Would that manufacturer's stamp date simply be different on the back?